Winning LuxApe Deck Workshop

by Ed ~ January 21st, 2010.

I just got done laying out a plan for our Pokemon Deck Workshop. If you are confused by how this article looks, go back and read that.

Now, let’s get to building me a winning LuxApe deck. Here’s the deal. I recently got myself an Infernape 4 Lv. X and an Uxie Lv. X. Now, I want to use them for fun and profit (where profit may be league stamps, premier rating points, etc.). What deck should I build? I think the obvious choice is Luxray GL with Infernape 4. Let’s start there. What else do I need? Other people run all kinds of crazy stuff that should be considered, but that’s not part of the article, that’s part of the discussion. I’ll wait to add my thoughts to the discussion until after I get at least one comment, and we’ll build the decklist together.

Here are my guidelines for this deck:
1) It needs to include Uxie Lv. X and Infernape E4 Lv. X.
2) I want it to be fast, because that’s how I roll.
3) I want it to abuse some game mechanic(s) that most decks don’t use, plan for, have a hard time responding to, etc.

Infernape E4 Lv. X
==== Team Omar LuxApe ====

Pokemon: 18
2 Luxray GL
1 Luxray GL Lv. X
2 Infernape 4
1 Infernape 4 Lv. X
2 Uxie
1 Uxie Lv. X
1 Bronzong G
1 Crobat G
1 Lucario GL
1 Vulpix (Shiny) PL
1 Ninetails MT
1 Toxicroak G (Promo)
1 Azelf LA
1 Rayquaza LA
1 Unown G GE

Trainers: 17
4 Poke Turn
4 Power Spray
4 Energy Gain
3 SP Radar
1 Night Maintenance
1 Luxury Ball

Supporters: 10
4 Cyrus’s Conspiracy
4 Roseanne’s Research
1 Aaron’s Collection
1 Bebe’s Search

Stadiums: 2
2 Stark Mountain

Energy: 13
3 SP Energy (or Call Energy)
1 Psychic Energy
3 Electric Energy
6 Fire Energy

NOTE: If you don’t like the Raquaza / Stark Mountain combo to get energy back from the discard pile, here’s the recommendation.

-2 Stark Mountain
-1 Raquaza

+1 Aaron’s Collection
+1 Unown G
+1 Expert Belt

Category: Deck Workshop | Tags: , ,
  • So, im guessing that om order to leave a correct response to this new idea, i should leave some tech ideas to add and reasons why. If we are going for the luxray infernape deck, SP wise, the hardest matchup for you is luxray garchomp, since they can heal and target snipe every time. Anything with dialga shouldn’t be an issue. As for deck wise, you have a key Win/loss match-up against kingdra, you have their weakness and they have yours, and machamp, just like every other sp deck.

    So, focusing on sp first, some ideas to tech are some of the basic SP deck builds, a 2 uxie 1 uxie X for set up ability and to target psychic weakness. Another card to put in is for sure crobat. Bronzong G is also useable, i would use 2 unownG to make sure it is easily accessible, and then to counter garchomp, use ambipom G, it can OTK a garchomp with any 1 energy and an energy gain. Also, its first attack being tail code can force discard an energy if you move the energy to an unown G’d benched pokemon.
    Having a toxicroak G is also needed to counter luxray. i would run 2/3 infernape and the X, 2/3 luxray and the X, because you always want them out there.

    Mabye to get around some of the non sp-decks, put in lucario G, getting weakness on your side.

    For trainers, you will need imo 4 cyrus, p-turn, e-gain, p-spray, and rosies. The other trainers like sp-radar, i usually run 3 and a bebes, because bebes can save you durin trainer locks, but there only being one makes it harder to get when your in that situation. But i usually rely on cyrus to get me out of that one.

    Energy wise, id run 3-4 call, like 2 psychic, 2-3 electric, and 6-7 fire, since you NEED 2 fires to attack, and they get discarded. so heres a mkaeshift list. This is off the top of my head, so there will be cards i forget.

    Pokemon: 17
    3 luxray G
    1 Luxray G X
    3 Infernape G
    1 Infernape G x
    2 Uxie
    1 Uxie X
    1 Bronzong G
    1 Crobat G
    1 Lucario G
    1 Ambipom G
    1 Toxicroak G (Promo)
    1 Azelf

    Trainers/supporters: 29
    4 Cyrus
    4 Rosie’s
    4 P-turn
    4 E-gain
    4 P-Spray
    3 SP Radar
    2 Aarons
    1 Night maintenance
    1 Bebe’s
    1 Luxury Ball
    1 Premeir Ball

    Energy: 14
    3 Call
    2 Psychic
    3 Electric
    6 Fire

    I Hope this is what you were lookin for with this idea. haha.

  • So, im guessing that om order to leave a correct response to this new idea, i should leave some tech ideas to add and reasons why. If we are going for the luxray infernape deck, SP wise, the hardest matchup for you is luxray garchomp, since they can heal and target snipe every time. Anything with dialga shouldn’t be an issue. As for deck wise, you have a key Win/loss match-up against kingdra, you have their weakness and they have yours, and machamp, just like every other sp deck.

    So, focusing on sp first, some ideas to tech are some of the basic SP deck builds, a 2 uxie 1 uxie X for set up ability and to target psychic weakness. Another card to put in is for sure crobat. Bronzong G is also useable, i would use 2 unownG to make sure it is easily accessible, and then to counter garchomp, use ambipom G, it can OTK a garchomp with any 1 energy and an energy gain. Also, its first attack being tail code can force discard an energy if you move the energy to an unown G’d benched pokemon.
    Having a toxicroak G is also needed to counter luxray. i would run 2/3 infernape and the X, 2/3 luxray and the X, because you always want them out there.

    Mabye to get around some of the non sp-decks, put in lucario G, getting weakness on your side.

    For trainers, you will need imo 4 cyrus, p-turn, e-gain, p-spray, and rosies. The other trainers like sp-radar, i usually run 3 and a bebes, because bebes can save you durin trainer locks, but there only being one makes it harder to get when your in that situation. But i usually rely on cyrus to get me out of that one.

    Energy wise, id run 3-4 call, like 2 psychic, 2-3 electric, and 6-7 fire, since you NEED 2 fires to attack, and they get discarded. so heres a mkaeshift list. This is off the top of my head, so there will be cards i forget.

    Pokemon: 17
    3 luxray G
    1 Luxray G X
    3 Infernape G
    1 Infernape G x
    2 Uxie
    1 Uxie X
    1 Bronzong G
    1 Crobat G
    1 Lucario G
    1 Ambipom G
    1 Toxicroak G (Promo)
    1 Azelf

    Trainers/supporters: 29
    4 Cyrus
    4 Rosie’s
    4 P-turn
    4 E-gain
    4 P-Spray
    3 SP Radar
    2 Aarons
    1 Night maintenance
    1 Bebe’s
    1 Luxury Ball
    1 Premeir Ball

    Energy: 14
    3 Call
    2 Psychic
    3 Electric
    6 Fire

    I Hope this is what you were lookin for with this idea. haha.

  • Ed

    ===== Your List =====

    My first question about your list is why no SP energy? Of course it’s not searchable, but I’m thinking that I don’t need so much searchable fire energy. Is that right?

    Another thing I see is that there isn’t much for card drawing. Why shouldn’t the deck run 3 Uxie? Of course it can fill up the bench, but is that enough of a drawback?

    Does it really need 3 Luxray and Infernape? InfernapeX’s PokePower can be activated once per turn, so it doesn’t need to be PokeTurned to work again. LuxrayX’s is only upon playing it to the active, so I can see wanting a benched Luxray. That would allow you to PokeTurn the active and level-up one that was previously out. So, does that argue for 3 Luxray? Does that argue for running only 2 of either?

    ===== Other Cards =====

    Now, what about some of these cards I’ve seen in other people’s deck lists.

    Chatot MD: To be honest, I’m not sure I really get the appeal. Is it simply for the card drawing, or is locking your opponent’s retreat worthwhile?

    Vulpix / Ninetails MT: This could let me exploit opposing weakness, especially combo’d with Lucario G. It especially helps against Mewtwo Lv. X, but we covered that before. I just don’t know if we see enough Mewtwo to tech a couple spots for it.

    Vulpix / Ninetails PL: Flame Bash could build up a benched Infernape nicely, I suppose. I hate “wasting” an attack, though.

    Rayquaza LA: This looks like a nifty way to get a big hit (and from a colorless source). It can sit on the bench pulling my discarded energies until it’s ready for action. The main issue I see is retreat cost. Once you Sky Judgement, he’s stuck there. If it’s your last prize, then okay. Otherwise, what do you do?

    ===== Other Thoughts =====

    What about my goal of having the deck be real fast? Can we tweak anything there (maybe at the cost of some tech)?

    Most LuxApe decks seem to run a lot of Pokemon and Supporters. I was wondering if a build that cycled cards with Uxie drawing could set up faster. You know I like to dump my hand playing massive amounts of trainers and then refill my hand. Could a deck like this be tweaked for speed with the idea of emptying your hand and dropping Uxie a couple times in the first turn to get set up?

    In most Uxie-draw decks, having energy clogging up the hand would be annoying. In this deck, however, I wonder if you could go either way. If you clog with energy, then you just sit back and burn some energy with the attacks. If you don’t clog up, then you Uxie for more.

    To go this route, recycling Uxie might to be supported. That can be done with Psychic Restore plus Roseanne’s/DuskBall/etc. Or, it can be done with Super Scoop Up. Both have drawbacks and advantages.

    Speaking of Uxie, can the deck be made to support UxieX as a main attacker? As it is now, I think UxieX is mainly used as tech and a bit of extra draw power. The other attackers have a hard time using Expert Belt (with Energy Gain), but what about Uxie? X could hit for 80 with the belt or 40 and run away. It might add another surprise to grab a quick prize. Of course the Psychic Restore gets the Belt away from my opponet’s double-prizing clutches while also giving me another chance to use Set Up. It just might not combo well with the rest of the SP engine and all the energy discarding the deck will be doing.

    So, speaking of speed and getting Uxie set up quickly, is Is Level Max worth anything here? I think it wouldn’t be great for Luxray, but for Infernape and Uxie could benefit from an early level-up. There’s just that stupid coin flip, but coin flipping ain’t all bad when the goal is to empty the hand and drop another Uxie. Both heads and tails gets the card out. Of course, you’d need to have a basic Infernape or Uxie out first, so I’d advocate playing 3 of each if that was the idea.

    I understand why/how to use Azelf. I just wonder how important it is here. Losing any of the 3 Lv. Xs hurts, but none are an auto loss. Uxie, Infernape, and Luxray are all okay without their X. They’re just a lot better with it. Is having Azelf take up a deck spot and a potential bench spot worth it for sure?

  • Ed

    ===== Your List =====

    My first question about your list is why no SP energy? Of course it’s not searchable, but I’m thinking that I don’t need so much searchable fire energy. Is that right?

    Another thing I see is that there isn’t much for card drawing. Why shouldn’t the deck run 3 Uxie? Of course it can fill up the bench, but is that enough of a drawback?

    Does it really need 3 Luxray and Infernape? InfernapeX’s PokePower can be activated once per turn, so it doesn’t need to be PokeTurned to work again. LuxrayX’s is only upon playing it to the active, so I can see wanting a benched Luxray. That would allow you to PokeTurn the active and level-up one that was previously out. So, does that argue for 3 Luxray? Does that argue for running only 2 of either?

    ===== Other Cards =====

    Now, what about some of these cards I’ve seen in other people’s deck lists.

    Chatot MD: To be honest, I’m not sure I really get the appeal. Is it simply for the card drawing, or is locking your opponent’s retreat worthwhile?

    Vulpix / Ninetails MT: This could let me exploit opposing weakness, especially combo’d with Lucario G. It especially helps against Mewtwo Lv. X, but we covered that before. I just don’t know if we see enough Mewtwo to tech a couple spots for it.

    Vulpix / Ninetails PL: Flame Bash could build up a benched Infernape nicely, I suppose. I hate “wasting” an attack, though.

    Rayquaza LA: This looks like a nifty way to get a big hit (and from a colorless source). It can sit on the bench pulling my discarded energies until it’s ready for action. The main issue I see is retreat cost. Once you Sky Judgement, he’s stuck there. If it’s your last prize, then okay. Otherwise, what do you do?

    ===== Other Thoughts =====

    What about my goal of having the deck be real fast? Can we tweak anything there (maybe at the cost of some tech)?

    Most LuxApe decks seem to run a lot of Pokemon and Supporters. I was wondering if a build that cycled cards with Uxie drawing could set up faster. You know I like to dump my hand playing massive amounts of trainers and then refill my hand. Could a deck like this be tweaked for speed with the idea of emptying your hand and dropping Uxie a couple times in the first turn to get set up?

    In most Uxie-draw decks, having energy clogging up the hand would be annoying. In this deck, however, I wonder if you could go either way. If you clog with energy, then you just sit back and burn some energy with the attacks. If you don’t clog up, then you Uxie for more.

    To go this route, recycling Uxie might to be supported. That can be done with Psychic Restore plus Roseanne’s/DuskBall/etc. Or, it can be done with Super Scoop Up. Both have drawbacks and advantages.

    Speaking of Uxie, can the deck be made to support UxieX as a main attacker? As it is now, I think UxieX is mainly used as tech and a bit of extra draw power. The other attackers have a hard time using Expert Belt (with Energy Gain), but what about Uxie? X could hit for 80 with the belt or 40 and run away. It might add another surprise to grab a quick prize. Of course the Psychic Restore gets the Belt away from my opponet’s double-prizing clutches while also giving me another chance to use Set Up. It just might not combo well with the rest of the SP engine and all the energy discarding the deck will be doing.

    So, speaking of speed and getting Uxie set up quickly, is Is Level Max worth anything here? I think it wouldn’t be great for Luxray, but for Infernape and Uxie could benefit from an early level-up. There’s just that stupid coin flip, but coin flipping ain’t all bad when the goal is to empty the hand and drop another Uxie. Both heads and tails gets the card out. Of course, you’d need to have a basic Infernape or Uxie out first, so I’d advocate playing 3 of each if that was the idea.

    I understand why/how to use Azelf. I just wonder how important it is here. Losing any of the 3 Lv. Xs hurts, but none are an auto loss. Uxie, Infernape, and Luxray are all okay without their X. They’re just a lot better with it. Is having Azelf take up a deck spot and a potential bench spot worth it for sure?

  • SP Energy in my opinion take away your consistency and your recycle. You can’t search for them via cyrus, roseannes, and i like just having the ability to get them when i need them.

    The main reason to only run 2 uxie is with cyrus and your other supporters, there are very few times your hand-size is below 7, and when it is, usually u get your 1 uxie and then your fine again for a very long time.

    that was just a makeshift list, imo 2 of infernape will suffice. Id still keep the 3rd luxray for consistency purposes, and for this power a couple turns in a row.

    chatot md i dont think is needed, its a good card in some decks to make sure there is a way to refresh the hand or escape a lock situation. Not very much use in SP, but thats just me.

    The ninetales MT is a really good idea, i would have never thought of it. That can help OTK many pokemon when your opponent leasts expects it. an only discarding 1 is really good.

    Raquaza is too, flippy. his power that is. and sure the damage is nice, but i dont want him stuck up there and i dont wanna have to rely on flips for him to really be effective.

    For SP, you usually start to swing for knockouts turn 2, idk how to speed that up. The whole reason behind the uxie speed up deck is to donk/use many cards. In SP, its more of a consistent flow, getting a whole bunch of poke-turns or energy-gains due to set-up may not be effective, let alone since there are so many techs pokemon wise needed(yeah, needed)using uxie more then once effectively can become a hard task to do. With so many different cards that could be drawn, and only being able to drop one energy, speeding it up from its already fast state is pretty much impossible.

    Using uxie X as a main attacker is an idea, but i dont see how good it can be with all of the different psychic pokemon in decks to get its weakness, or its lower then normal hp count, it may be risky. Its also a basic, so machamp gets excited.

    As you can tell, i dont like flips, so level max, no thanks. I like consistency, so azelf, yes please. with all the solo techs, the 1 sets, and 1 of each X, sometimes azelf will be your best friend.

    Belt tho is an idea. I have always wondered with poketurns how well belt would help for that extra umph when you dont wanna drop crobat yk? just a thought. Ive tried working it in to my decks, but i wouldnt know what to take out, haha.

  • SP Energy in my opinion take away your consistency and your recycle. You can’t search for them via cyrus, roseannes, and i like just having the ability to get them when i need them.

    The main reason to only run 2 uxie is with cyrus and your other supporters, there are very few times your hand-size is below 7, and when it is, usually u get your 1 uxie and then your fine again for a very long time.

    that was just a makeshift list, imo 2 of infernape will suffice. Id still keep the 3rd luxray for consistency purposes, and for this power a couple turns in a row.

    chatot md i dont think is needed, its a good card in some decks to make sure there is a way to refresh the hand or escape a lock situation. Not very much use in SP, but thats just me.

    The ninetales MT is a really good idea, i would have never thought of it. That can help OTK many pokemon when your opponent leasts expects it. an only discarding 1 is really good.

    Raquaza is too, flippy. his power that is. and sure the damage is nice, but i dont want him stuck up there and i dont wanna have to rely on flips for him to really be effective.

    For SP, you usually start to swing for knockouts turn 2, idk how to speed that up. The whole reason behind the uxie speed up deck is to donk/use many cards. In SP, its more of a consistent flow, getting a whole bunch of poke-turns or energy-gains due to set-up may not be effective, let alone since there are so many techs pokemon wise needed(yeah, needed)using uxie more then once effectively can become a hard task to do. With so many different cards that could be drawn, and only being able to drop one energy, speeding it up from its already fast state is pretty much impossible.

    Using uxie X as a main attacker is an idea, but i dont see how good it can be with all of the different psychic pokemon in decks to get its weakness, or its lower then normal hp count, it may be risky. Its also a basic, so machamp gets excited.

    As you can tell, i dont like flips, so level max, no thanks. I like consistency, so azelf, yes please. with all the solo techs, the 1 sets, and 1 of each X, sometimes azelf will be your best friend.

    Belt tho is an idea. I have always wondered with poketurns how well belt would help for that extra umph when you dont wanna drop crobat yk? just a thought. Ive tried working it in to my decks, but i wouldnt know what to take out, haha.

  • Ed

    “The main reason to only run 2 uxie is with cyrus and your other supporters, there are very few times your hand-size is below 7, and when it is, usually u get your 1 uxie and then your fine again for a very long time.”

    Well, yes, I can understand that. My question would then be if it’s better to run less Uxie to account for the supporters, or is it better to run less supporters to allow you to refill the hand? But, you knew that’s where I was going.

    It seems that you are in favor of the Ninetails MT. I’m thinking that it could also replace the Ambipom C. The question, then, is how many: 1-1 or 2-2? If 1-1, then Azelf REALLY becomes necessary. I’d think that the opponent would always expect the Ninetails, because it (or Vulpix) would have to be out a turn before the attack. That doesn’t stop you from a Bright Look, retreat, Fire Blast move.

    I just found this post about the Ninetails.
    http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1610920&postcount=10
    “Also Ninetales counters more than Mewtwo
    1) Mewtwo
    2) Flygon
    3) If Gengar is the hit and run version it plays Spirtomb (so you hit Gengar for 120)
    4) Garchomp C
    5) Dialga G
    6) Palkia G if they play Luxray
    7) Machamp if they play pixies.
    **Assuming you play Lucario GL (which all good lists should IMO)**”

    I like the belt, but (like you) I’m not sure what would be taken out for it. Also, I don’t like that it doesn’t combo well with the EGain.

    As for Rayquza, I really see a lot of LuxApe decks working him in there. I wonder if he just sits back on the bench gathering the discarded energy and then attacks for one huge final blow.

    I’ll take a whack at updating the list, now.

  • Ed

    “The main reason to only run 2 uxie is with cyrus and your other supporters, there are very few times your hand-size is below 7, and when it is, usually u get your 1 uxie and then your fine again for a very long time.”

    Well, yes, I can understand that. My question would then be if it’s better to run less Uxie to account for the supporters, or is it better to run less supporters to allow you to refill the hand? But, you knew that’s where I was going.

    It seems that you are in favor of the Ninetails MT. I’m thinking that it could also replace the Ambipom C. The question, then, is how many: 1-1 or 2-2? If 1-1, then Azelf REALLY becomes necessary. I’d think that the opponent would always expect the Ninetails, because it (or Vulpix) would have to be out a turn before the attack. That doesn’t stop you from a Bright Look, retreat, Fire Blast move.

    I just found this post about the Ninetails.
    http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1610920&postcount=10
    “Also Ninetales counters more than Mewtwo
    1) Mewtwo
    2) Flygon
    3) If Gengar is the hit and run version it plays Spirtomb (so you hit Gengar for 120)
    4) Garchomp C
    5) Dialga G
    6) Palkia G if they play Luxray
    7) Machamp if they play pixies.
    **Assuming you play Lucario GL (which all good lists should IMO)**”

    I like the belt, but (like you) I’m not sure what would be taken out for it. Also, I don’t like that it doesn’t combo well with the EGain.

    As for Rayquza, I really see a lot of LuxApe decks working him in there. I wonder if he just sits back on the bench gathering the discarded energy and then attacks for one huge final blow.

    I’ll take a whack at updating the list, now.

  • Ed

    I updated the list. I’m thinking that 14 might be too much energy, though.

    Which Vulpix should it run? PL is what I see most people running, so they can use Reheat. It discards energy to draw cards. I can’t see myself discarding energy like that with this deck. Therefore, I think the MT version may be better. It has 60 HP (PL has 50). That seems like a significant difference for an evolving Pokemon. Also, MT’s Fire Soul attack seems better than PL’s Confuse Ray for this deck. Doing damage to the bench seems like something this deck ought to be doing.

    I noticed no Unown G in your list. Is that on purpose?

    11 Supporters still bothers me. Uh, they’re so slow. I get the SP Energy deal, too, but I can’t help think that if you cycled a bit more, they’d pop up.

    You’re the expert on this one, so even though we’re building the winning deck here, I might just have to build a card-drawing version for testing. Then we can prove that you were right all along.

  • Ed

    I updated the list. I’m thinking that 14 might be too much energy, though.

    Which Vulpix should it run? PL is what I see most people running, so they can use Reheat. It discards energy to draw cards. I can’t see myself discarding energy like that with this deck. Therefore, I think the MT version may be better. It has 60 HP (PL has 50). That seems like a significant difference for an evolving Pokemon. Also, MT’s Fire Soul attack seems better than PL’s Confuse Ray for this deck. Doing damage to the bench seems like something this deck ought to be doing.

    I noticed no Unown G in your list. Is that on purpose?

    11 Supporters still bothers me. Uh, they’re so slow. I get the SP Energy deal, too, but I can’t help think that if you cycled a bit more, they’d pop up.

    You’re the expert on this one, so even though we’re building the winning deck here, I might just have to build a card-drawing version for testing. Then we can prove that you were right all along.

  • Lol, well its called testing for a reason. Some things you just want to try out on your own.

    As i said in the first deck list, i knew there were cards i was missing and it was during 5th period so there wasnt much thought toward energy counts trainer counts or pokemon counts. Just throwing a quick list. Unown G fer sher is necessary.

    I can see why the ninetales is so good. It needing a turn will definately let your opponent know its comin, which is a down side, unless they run BTS. But, this all being said, i dont see it as a main attacker/focus as much as a back up strategy. Therefore, id go with a 1-1 set with azelf.

    I dont know what it is about raquaza, its just not me. Mabye they like to use him late? idk. SP is so fast i dont see a situation where he is needed, let alone with a colorless weakness hes asking to get flygon raped, or next set with double colorless coming back, garchomp non-SP and garchomp C, even something silly like exploud. x2 weakness and 100hp, not worth it imo.

    The uxie draw situation, i dont think taking out supporters is worth it. I like consistency over luck. Uxie to me is just a back up strat if cards arent going your way. At the same time, running less uxie makes azelf that much more important, and for a draw power poke powered basic, making sure there will be at least 1 uxie in deck i say is the safest route with SP.

    the whole supporter deal is that truthfully, when playing SP, i see supporters as just an added effect. The trainers and pokemon make that deck, and i find myself every here and there just not playing a supporter simply because i dont need to. It wont slow you down, it will just maintain your speed.

    I love this workshop idea tho, i now want to throw this deck together and test it against gaga so i can help further with the thought process. How i see it, you figure out how to beat that, you will be fine against anything. Hands down the deck to beat as of now.

  • Lol, well its called testing for a reason. Some things you just want to try out on your own.

    As i said in the first deck list, i knew there were cards i was missing and it was during 5th period so there wasnt much thought toward energy counts trainer counts or pokemon counts. Just throwing a quick list. Unown G fer sher is necessary.

    I can see why the ninetales is so good. It needing a turn will definately let your opponent know its comin, which is a down side, unless they run BTS. But, this all being said, i dont see it as a main attacker/focus as much as a back up strategy. Therefore, id go with a 1-1 set with azelf.

    I dont know what it is about raquaza, its just not me. Mabye they like to use him late? idk. SP is so fast i dont see a situation where he is needed, let alone with a colorless weakness hes asking to get flygon raped, or next set with double colorless coming back, garchomp non-SP and garchomp C, even something silly like exploud. x2 weakness and 100hp, not worth it imo.

    The uxie draw situation, i dont think taking out supporters is worth it. I like consistency over luck. Uxie to me is just a back up strat if cards arent going your way. At the same time, running less uxie makes azelf that much more important, and for a draw power poke powered basic, making sure there will be at least 1 uxie in deck i say is the safest route with SP.

    the whole supporter deal is that truthfully, when playing SP, i see supporters as just an added effect. The trainers and pokemon make that deck, and i find myself every here and there just not playing a supporter simply because i dont need to. It wont slow you down, it will just maintain your speed.

    I love this workshop idea tho, i now want to throw this deck together and test it against gaga so i can help further with the thought process. How i see it, you figure out how to beat that, you will be fine against anything. Hands down the deck to beat as of now.

  • Ed

    Yeah, I like how this is working out. You know it’s hard for me to playtest stuff, so if you throw it together, post about how it goes. I’m serious about trying out a deck-milling version, but I’m also serious about assuming that your build will be better.

    I’ll update the list slightly, but let me know your list if you throw together a test build.

    I have to admit, too, that the Raquaza idea is growing on me a bit. I just can’t get around the retreat problem. In a deck like this that’s going to be used to free (or real cheap) retreating, Raquaza is a problem. Maybe it can work as a game finisher, but it someone brings it active, ick.

    Ahh, I just realized that I missed the mark on my Vulpix questioning. It wasn’t between PL and MT. Shiny Vulpix from PL is the answer. It’s 60HP with Find Wildfire, a free attack that gets 2 fire energy from your deck.
    See http://pokebeach.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=65729&pid=1334638#pid1334638

    Oh, and another find here. The Rayquaza isn’t just intended as a late-game attacker. It combos with Stark Mountain to get your fire energy back onto Infernape. So, yeah, maybe then reward outweighs the chance that it gets pulled active. If you draw into Stark, then you Roseanne’s for Rayquaza. Otherwise, leave him in the deck, I guess.

    I’ll edit the list again, and I’m including Rayquaza and Stark. Let me know if you feel strongly otherwise.

  • Ed

    Yeah, I like how this is working out. You know it’s hard for me to playtest stuff, so if you throw it together, post about how it goes. I’m serious about trying out a deck-milling version, but I’m also serious about assuming that your build will be better.

    I’ll update the list slightly, but let me know your list if you throw together a test build.

    I have to admit, too, that the Raquaza idea is growing on me a bit. I just can’t get around the retreat problem. In a deck like this that’s going to be used to free (or real cheap) retreating, Raquaza is a problem. Maybe it can work as a game finisher, but it someone brings it active, ick.

    Ahh, I just realized that I missed the mark on my Vulpix questioning. It wasn’t between PL and MT. Shiny Vulpix from PL is the answer. It’s 60HP with Find Wildfire, a free attack that gets 2 fire energy from your deck.
    See http://pokebeach.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=65729&pid=1334638#pid1334638

    Oh, and another find here. The Rayquaza isn’t just intended as a late-game attacker. It combos with Stark Mountain to get your fire energy back onto Infernape. So, yeah, maybe then reward outweighs the chance that it gets pulled active. If you draw into Stark, then you Roseanne’s for Rayquaza. Otherwise, leave him in the deck, I guess.

    I’ll edit the list again, and I’m including Rayquaza and Stark. Let me know if you feel strongly otherwise.

  • Hmm, intersting combo. With this in ming, mabye having 2 Starks will be needed for consistency or if they switch yours with theirs. This being said, i feel like bench space is very, tight. persay luxray is active, infernape is benched, bronzong is benched, raquaza is benched. This only allows 2 spots of teched cards. This may work, i just feel like it would make your poke turns that much more important and necessary. This also makes it necessary to kill fast to a point that your opponent cannot do anything, just from the looks of it.

    but other then that, the only questionish feeling i have(other then the raquaza stark) is the 1 premeir ball instead of a second Aarons. Hmm. Aarons gets the X and mabye the basic, or an energy, or even if need be the basic and an energy, or 2 energy. I like the diverce choices. The premeir ball is so selective, but it is a trainer, making it faster and more efficient to get to 1 of the 3 lxl X pokemon in your deck/discard pile. So far, Aarons has been the victor in my books.

  • Hmm, intersting combo. With this in ming, mabye having 2 Starks will be needed for consistency or if they switch yours with theirs. This being said, i feel like bench space is very, tight. persay luxray is active, infernape is benched, bronzong is benched, raquaza is benched. This only allows 2 spots of teched cards. This may work, i just feel like it would make your poke turns that much more important and necessary. This also makes it necessary to kill fast to a point that your opponent cannot do anything, just from the looks of it.

    but other then that, the only questionish feeling i have(other then the raquaza stark) is the 1 premeir ball instead of a second Aarons. Hmm. Aarons gets the X and mabye the basic, or an energy, or even if need be the basic and an energy, or 2 energy. I like the diverce choices. The premeir ball is so selective, but it is a trainer, making it faster and more efficient to get to 1 of the 3 lxl X pokemon in your deck/discard pile. So far, Aarons has been the victor in my books.

  • Ed

    Maybe Time-Space Distortion is best? Here’s a cheap(er) one.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160397515511

    I’ll reply to the rest of the stuff a bit later. If you want to give me a -this +this sort of list, I can update the article.

  • Ed

    Maybe Time-Space Distortion is best? Here’s a cheap(er) one.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160397515511

    I’ll reply to the rest of the stuff a bit later. If you want to give me a -this +this sort of list, I can update the article.

  • uhm, if i were to change anything, these would be the changes

    if you want to keep the raquaza line in there, id
    -1 Premeir Ball
    +1 Stark Mountain

    If you were to take it out
    -1 Premeir Ball
    -1 Stark
    -1 Raquaza

    +1 Aarons
    +1 unownG
    +1 Expert Belt

  • uhm, if i were to change anything, these would be the changes

    if you want to keep the raquaza line in there, id
    -1 Premeir Ball
    +1 Stark Mountain

    If you were to take it out
    -1 Premeir Ball
    -1 Stark
    -1 Raquaza

    +1 Aarons
    +1 unownG
    +1 Expert Belt

  • Ed

    Well, ideally I’d like to test with and without the Raquaza/Stark combo.

    It seems that, either way, the message is to remove a Premier ball. To me, I think that if I were to take it to a tourney right now, I’d play the Raquaza/Stark/Stark over Aarons/UnownG/ExBelt. I’d like to work the belt in, but I don’t feel like it will give enough of an edge. I feel like Raquaza will give me more than Aarons, and Unown G seems like just a bystander in this comparison. I’ll write the list that way, but I’ll put a comment in about the option to remove the Raquaza tech.

    I’ll modify the article, and I’m thinking that it won’t get edited again until we can put in some good playtesting.

    What should the next deckbuilding article be? It seems that “Dialga Garchomp Deck” is a popular thing to search for. Should we try our hand at working up a nice list for that? I also wouldn’t mind trying a LuxChomp decklist. If LuxApe doesn’t perform well, then I might switch out the Infernape and his bro’s for Garchomp and his pals. Let me know, or just start an article yourself.

  • Ed

    Well, ideally I’d like to test with and without the Raquaza/Stark combo.

    It seems that, either way, the message is to remove a Premier ball. To me, I think that if I were to take it to a tourney right now, I’d play the Raquaza/Stark/Stark over Aarons/UnownG/ExBelt. I’d like to work the belt in, but I don’t feel like it will give enough of an edge. I feel like Raquaza will give me more than Aarons, and Unown G seems like just a bystander in this comparison. I’ll write the list that way, but I’ll put a comment in about the option to remove the Raquaza tech.

    I’ll modify the article, and I’m thinking that it won’t get edited again until we can put in some good playtesting.

    What should the next deckbuilding article be? It seems that “Dialga Garchomp Deck” is a popular thing to search for. Should we try our hand at working up a nice list for that? I also wouldn’t mind trying a LuxChomp decklist. If LuxApe doesn’t perform well, then I might switch out the Infernape and his bro’s for Garchomp and his pals. Let me know, or just start an article yourself.

  • Ed

    I built the deck, but instead of Call Energy, I put in SP Energy. That’s mainly because I don’t own Call Energy, but I also wanted to see how the SP worked. Here are some initial thoughts from my small solitaire play-test session.

    The bench fills up quickly. The deck has 15 basics, and most of them are not multiples of each other. It could run 1 less Luxray GL. That would be an easy pull. The next one may be Lucario GL, but I haven’t done enough testing to tell if that hurts it too much against real opponents. The same goes for Bronzong G, Promocroak, and even the Ninetails line. I’d be very hesitant to remove the Bronzong.

    I’ve seen what Promocroak can do, but perhaps it’s not enough to warrant 3 spots (Toxicroak + 2 Psy Energy). In fact, if I keep running SP energy, I think I will change 1 Psy to Electric. At least Bronzong can push the SP energy to Croak.

    One thing that I really did like (which I wasn’t sure about) was the Rayquaza/Stark combo. There were many turns where Rayquaza didn’t pick up any energy at all, but then, all of a sudden, he’d pick up a whole clump. Stark can then move the Fire up to Infernape to keep his Fire Spin going each turn. Stark has other nice synergy, too, because it can move any Fire energy from anyone to a Fire or Fighting Pokemon. That means that it could even move an SP Energy onto Promocroak. This could be a big deal.

    One thing I didn’t like was that I often got several Supporters stuck in my hand. This is a recurring nightmare of mine, so it’s hard to tell if it’s actually a problem with the deck of if it’s something that I need to go to therapy for.

    I’m going to update the list now. I feel like I need to pull some basic out, so I’m going to drop a Luxray GL. I’m also going to up the Lightning energy (I never know if I should call it Electric or Lightning, so I waffle) and drop a Psy. I’ll edit the list to reflect that I’m using SP Energy. I haven’t tested with Call, though, so I don’t really know which is better.

  • Ed

    I built the deck, but instead of Call Energy, I put in SP Energy. That’s mainly because I don’t own Call Energy, but I also wanted to see how the SP worked. Here are some initial thoughts from my small solitaire play-test session.

    The bench fills up quickly. The deck has 15 basics, and most of them are not multiples of each other. It could run 1 less Luxray GL. That would be an easy pull. The next one may be Lucario GL, but I haven’t done enough testing to tell if that hurts it too much against real opponents. The same goes for Bronzong G, Promocroak, and even the Ninetails line. I’d be very hesitant to remove the Bronzong.

    I’ve seen what Promocroak can do, but perhaps it’s not enough to warrant 3 spots (Toxicroak + 2 Psy Energy). In fact, if I keep running SP energy, I think I will change 1 Psy to Electric. At least Bronzong can push the SP energy to Croak.

    One thing that I really did like (which I wasn’t sure about) was the Rayquaza/Stark combo. There were many turns where Rayquaza didn’t pick up any energy at all, but then, all of a sudden, he’d pick up a whole clump. Stark can then move the Fire up to Infernape to keep his Fire Spin going each turn. Stark has other nice synergy, too, because it can move any Fire energy from anyone to a Fire or Fighting Pokemon. That means that it could even move an SP Energy onto Promocroak. This could be a big deal.

    One thing I didn’t like was that I often got several Supporters stuck in my hand. This is a recurring nightmare of mine, so it’s hard to tell if it’s actually a problem with the deck of if it’s something that I need to go to therapy for.

    I’m going to update the list now. I feel like I need to pull some basic out, so I’m going to drop a Luxray GL. I’m also going to up the Lightning energy (I never know if I should call it Electric or Lightning, so I waffle) and drop a Psy. I’ll edit the list to reflect that I’m using SP Energy. I haven’t tested with Call, though, so I don’t really know which is better.

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