HGSS Shuppet Donk Deck – Dunsparce GS

by Ed ~ February 16th, 2010.

Last month, I posted talking about my Shuppet Donk Deck. The lists posted there didn’t take any of the HeartGold SoulSilver cards into account. To be honest, there isn’t a whole lot that HGSS brings to the deck. There is only one real big thing that HGSS allows this deck to do, but it’s enough to keep the deck alive and not fade out.

Oh, speaking of fade out, there’s a Pokemon in HGSS that has an attack named “fade out.” Isn’t that what Shuppet’s main attack is? Let’s take a closer look.

Dunsparce (from the GS set) is a 50HP basic Pokemon that can do 20 damage and return itself (and all attached cards) to your hand. Shuppet’s main attack does 30, so why would we want to sacrifice 10 damage in a donk deck? I can think of a few reasons: weakness, resistance, and attack cost.

When I say weakness and resistance, I’m not talking about Dunsparce’s (or Shuppet’s). If you play the deck well, they will never be attacked. I’m talking about the defending Pokemon’s weakness and resistance. In the past, if you played Shuppet against a Psy resistant foe, you might be in trouble. You didn’t have any other options. Now, you have Dunsparce. Also, in the past, the only weakness you could exploit was Psy, but now you can switch it up and get an easier KO on that Flygon, Garchomp C Lv. X, or whatever.

Another big thing about Dunsparce is that he gives you another colorless attack. I say “another,” because you already had Uxie. Uxie wasn’t the main attacker in Shuppet Donk, but he was there if you needed him. If you needed to clear some bench space or wanted to do another Set Up, you could always Psychic Restore placing Uxie at the bottom of the deck. Maybe you could even Dusk Ball him back the next turn. His attack was colorless, but, because it wasn’t an attack you wanted to rely on, you probably wouldn’t run any energy besides Psy in the deck. Now, that’s all changed.

What do you do when you are up against Spiritomb AR with a standard Shuppet build? Well, you hope and pray that you can KO that Tomb ASAP. Dunsparce has another answer, and it’s called Cyclone Energy. Dunsparce can use the Cyclone Energy to blow back the defender and still attack that turn (which Shuppet couldn’t do). Cyclone Energy is quite nice here. If you want to use its effect, just drop Dunsparce, retreat your active (to bring up Dunsparce), then drop Cyclone. If you don’t want to swap out the defender, drop Dunsparce, drop Cyclone, then retreat your active (to bring up Dunsparce).

If you still don’t believe me, take a look at the SixPrizes article titled “A New Friend for Shuppet!” It’s not a long article, but there really isn’t a whole lot to say, and there are some good comments there.

So, maybe I’ve sold you on the idea of Dunsparce, and you’re all ready to build your Dunsparce Donk Deck. Well, now I’m going to show you my current build that runs only 1 Dunsparce and 1 Shuppet. I keep reading deck discussions about different ways to build this sort of deck. Whenever I see a title about a Shuppet deck, I try to at least browse the decklist. They rarely impress. The deck is about raw speed, and people keep mucking it up with extra Shuppets, Banettes, weird tech Pokemon, etc. I’m not saying that mine is better than theirs, but I think it is.

If you want to understand how this deck works, I suggest some background reading. Check out SLOW DECK’s “UR Double Donked.Dec – The original.” It really is quite a deck. I even ran a similar build in a City Championship before moving to Shuppet. The straight Uxie build is ultra potent, but the Shuppet build adds consistency. Just take a look at that Uxie deck, though. Ain’t it lean and sexy? That’s how I think the Shuppet version should look. It’s still lean and sexy, but it’s a bit more grown up and can deal with a bit more adversity.

I know. You want the list.
Dunsparce GS

Pokemon: 17
1 Shuppet PL
1 Banette PL
2 Crobat G
4 Uxie LA
4 Unown R
1 Mr. Mime MT
2 Unown Q
1 Dunsparce GS
1 Unown G

Trainers: 37
4 Poke Turn
4 Super Scoop Up
4 Poke Blower+
4 Poke Drawer+
4 Pokedex
4 Plus Power
4 Quick Ball
2 Dusk Ball
1 Luxury Ball
2 Night Maintenance
2 Expert Belt
1 Pokemon Rescue
1 Pokemon Communication

Supporters: 3
3 Roseanne’s Research

Energy: 3
2 Psychic Energy
1 Cyclone Energy

Category: Deck Discussion | Tags: , , ,
  • Interesting build only using 1 Shuppet and 1 Dunsparce. I really haven’t worked with this deck too much yet, but I like your approach.

  • Interesting build only using 1 Shuppet and 1 Dunsparce. I really haven’t worked with this deck too much yet, but I like your approach.

  • Ed

    The deck has so much search and draw power that you should never have a problem getting the single Shuppet. Furthermore, it should never get KO’d unless you are forced to start with it active and it gets donked (in which case, you probably lose because you didn’t have anyone benched either, so it’s just bad luck).

    The only real reason I see to run multiple Shuppet is in case it gets prized, and Dunsparce takes care of that problem. I must admit, though, before Dunsparce, I was running only a single Shuppet, and if it got prized, I would just play Uxie donk.

    I also didn’t run Banette before, because I didn’t see much Mewtwo Lv. X. I am now running a single Banette for that matchup. Many people run Memory Berry for Banette, which is a nice idea. I want to keep it lean, though. I could run extra Shuppet, Memory Berry, Rare Candy, Azelf, etc. It’s just too much. Any card that can get stuck in the hand and may be useless at any point hurts the deck. I think that going from no Banette to a single Banette gives me a much better chance vs Mewtwo, and it’s only 1 card. If Banette or Shuppet are prized, then you’ve got to hope that you can Crobat G and Poke Blower that (or some other) sucker. If they only run a single Mewtwo, then Cyclone gives you a chance to blow it back each turn and get other KOs until you can draw your needed prize.

    To me, it’s not the type of deck that needs tech. You can beat any deck out there if they go first and you can donk (or even double-donk), but of course there are things that will just shut it down if you can’t win right away. To me, it’s not worth teching against Dialga or Spiritomb.

    I don’t mind trying a single Spiritomb AR in the deck, though. I don’t see this as tech, but a bit of a shift in play. To do it, though, you probably need more Roseanne’s and/or Collector just in case you start with Spiritomb. Then you can get the Unown Q to retreat it.
    Here’s my pre-HGSS Spiritomb Shuppet build.
    http://www.teamomar.info/2010/01/14/shuppet-vs-sp/

  • Ed

    The deck has so much search and draw power that you should never have a problem getting the single Shuppet. Furthermore, it should never get KO’d unless you are forced to start with it active and it gets donked (in which case, you probably lose because you didn’t have anyone benched either, so it’s just bad luck).

    The only real reason I see to run multiple Shuppet is in case it gets prized, and Dunsparce takes care of that problem. I must admit, though, before Dunsparce, I was running only a single Shuppet, and if it got prized, I would just play Uxie donk.

    I also didn’t run Banette before, because I didn’t see much Mewtwo Lv. X. I am now running a single Banette for that matchup. Many people run Memory Berry for Banette, which is a nice idea. I want to keep it lean, though. I could run extra Shuppet, Memory Berry, Rare Candy, Azelf, etc. It’s just too much. Any card that can get stuck in the hand and may be useless at any point hurts the deck. I think that going from no Banette to a single Banette gives me a much better chance vs Mewtwo, and it’s only 1 card. If Banette or Shuppet are prized, then you’ve got to hope that you can Crobat G and Poke Blower that (or some other) sucker. If they only run a single Mewtwo, then Cyclone gives you a chance to blow it back each turn and get other KOs until you can draw your needed prize.

    To me, it’s not the type of deck that needs tech. You can beat any deck out there if they go first and you can donk (or even double-donk), but of course there are things that will just shut it down if you can’t win right away. To me, it’s not worth teching against Dialga or Spiritomb.

    I don’t mind trying a single Spiritomb AR in the deck, though. I don’t see this as tech, but a bit of a shift in play. To do it, though, you probably need more Roseanne’s and/or Collector just in case you start with Spiritomb. Then you can get the Unown Q to retreat it.
    Here’s my pre-HGSS Spiritomb Shuppet build.
    http://www.teamomar.info/2010/01/14/shuppet-vs-sp/

  • Cheffords

    I am curious to know if you have faced much trainer lock with this build?

    In my case, I started the City tournament season with a similar build and took first place at my first tourny. But then at my second tourny, got shutdown repeatedly by trainer lock of one form or another (Spiritomb, Gastly, Dialga G). I even faced a Dusknoir using Night Spin attack. Needless to say, I didn’t do so well that day. I tweaked the deck going into my third City tourny to help against trainer lock and I did much better, got top cut (had to drop out before championship rounds started because we needed to leave for home). All in all, I have played against nearly 20 opponents in tournament play and I haven’t seen a Mewtwo Lv.X, but I see trainer lock all the time now.

    Also, a point concerning your Banette tactic. Mewtwo Lv.X can OHKO Banette, but Banette cannot return the favor. I guess you use Night Maintenance to get the KO’d Banette back into the deck and then you search it out? It seems to me if you are seeing Mewtwo Lv.X, you really want to consider using Memory Berry to Banette can attack with Fade Out for the X2 weakness KO.

    Anyway, nice articles on this deck, I am interested in hearing more about your experiences with it.

  • Cheffords

    I am curious to know if you have faced much trainer lock with this build?

    In my case, I started the City tournament season with a similar build and took first place at my first tourny. But then at my second tourny, got shutdown repeatedly by trainer lock of one form or another (Spiritomb, Gastly, Dialga G). I even faced a Dusknoir using Night Spin attack. Needless to say, I didn’t do so well that day. I tweaked the deck going into my third City tourny to help against trainer lock and I did much better, got top cut (had to drop out before championship rounds started because we needed to leave for home). All in all, I have played against nearly 20 opponents in tournament play and I haven’t seen a Mewtwo Lv.X, but I see trainer lock all the time now.

    Also, a point concerning your Banette tactic. Mewtwo Lv.X can OHKO Banette, but Banette cannot return the favor. I guess you use Night Maintenance to get the KO’d Banette back into the deck and then you search it out? It seems to me if you are seeing Mewtwo Lv.X, you really want to consider using Memory Berry to Banette can attack with Fade Out for the X2 weakness KO.

    Anyway, nice articles on this deck, I am interested in hearing more about your experiences with it.

  • Ed

    Cheffords:

    First of all, I have not seen any Mewtwo Lv.X, either. When I used the deck (or similar builds) in tourneys, I just ignored the Mewtwo threat, because I thought that it wasn’t a likely opponent. That was a metagame decision.

    Recently, though, in my test group, one of the guys brought some Mewtwo X back, so when I rebuilt this deck, I put Banette in. I really didn’t want to devote much deck space to the tech, so I only put in the single Banette with no Berry. As you point out, this is not a very potent attack, but here’s my plan.

    If Mewtwo’s out, you already have an uphill battle. The single Banette gives you hope, but nothing solid. You have to drop Shuppet on your bench with a single energy. Of course, you can’t attack, so you have to wait it out. Whenever you get another turn with Mewtwo defending, then you can bring Banette’s Lonliness attack. If they don’t have Mewtwo up, then you work on them with Dunsparce until they do. The problem is that you want to have no Pokemon in your hand. If you do, then you’d better have ExBelt and PPower, and they (the PPower at least) will be lost for the rest of the game. You can expect to lose Banette after that, and then hopefully Night Maintenance.

    To be honest, though, I haven’t tested this deck much since rebuilding it. I’ve been working on another deck, and Shuppet has taken a back seat. I sorry that I don’t really have any good data for you except for the theoretical. It seems that you already have more “real world” experience with it yourself.

    With the metagame in flux now, I’m not sure what you should be preparing for the most. At some level, you just have to rely on your blinding speed to win you the tough matches. I’m not sure if you should concern youself with Mewtwo or not. You have to rely on some amount of luck to deal with it, so maybe you should just hope for the donk.

    It’s similar with Spiritomb and Gastly. They can both really hurt you, but the core deck can still KO either of them. It just takes multiple attacks to do it. I don’t think that there is a good enough reason to tech against these, but if you really wanted to, then you could run more supporters (probably Pokemon Collector) and more Crobat G. That way you’d still have a fair chance of searching out multiple Crobats for either KO (Spiritomb/Gastly). Again, though, I think it hurts the deck’s other matchups.

    Finally, let’s talk Dialga G. The strategy goes like this. “Lose” the coin toss. They go first. Then you win. If you make it past your first turn, I think the strategy failed. Dunsparce gives you a slightly better chance of pulling it off, but really it’s not a fair fight.

    One thing that I think you can try to do about these things is run your own Spiritomb. I kinda like this option, but I have only tested it briefly. My theory is that if you don’t let your opponent get set up then it’s kinda like getting a couple extra chances at that “win on the first turn” strategy. I would probably only run 1 Spiritomb. Against some decks, you’d want to start with it active, but against others it would be more of a hindrance (because you still have to deal with getting it out of your own way). It’s very situational, but I think it can improve your chances against some. It can also completely hose you.

    I know I wrote a lot and barely even answered your questions. I don’t have a whole lot of real world experience with the latest build of this deck. Previous versions seemed to either donk or get donked. I feel like this version has high donk potential while also lowering the “get donked” risk.

    Congrats on winning your City tourney! I’d be very interested to hear about your different builds and what you did to tweak it to help against trainer lock.

    Every time I start thinking about (or trying to test) tweaks for certain matchups, I get back to the basics. I just think that with a deck like this you live by the sword and die by the sword. The deck is a dangerous weapon that can beat anything out there, but it can also lose very unceremoniously.

  • Ed

    Cheffords:

    First of all, I have not seen any Mewtwo Lv.X, either. When I used the deck (or similar builds) in tourneys, I just ignored the Mewtwo threat, because I thought that it wasn’t a likely opponent. That was a metagame decision.

    Recently, though, in my test group, one of the guys brought some Mewtwo X back, so when I rebuilt this deck, I put Banette in. I really didn’t want to devote much deck space to the tech, so I only put in the single Banette with no Berry. As you point out, this is not a very potent attack, but here’s my plan.

    If Mewtwo’s out, you already have an uphill battle. The single Banette gives you hope, but nothing solid. You have to drop Shuppet on your bench with a single energy. Of course, you can’t attack, so you have to wait it out. Whenever you get another turn with Mewtwo defending, then you can bring Banette’s Lonliness attack. If they don’t have Mewtwo up, then you work on them with Dunsparce until they do. The problem is that you want to have no Pokemon in your hand. If you do, then you’d better have ExBelt and PPower, and they (the PPower at least) will be lost for the rest of the game. You can expect to lose Banette after that, and then hopefully Night Maintenance.

    To be honest, though, I haven’t tested this deck much since rebuilding it. I’ve been working on another deck, and Shuppet has taken a back seat. I sorry that I don’t really have any good data for you except for the theoretical. It seems that you already have more “real world” experience with it yourself.

    With the metagame in flux now, I’m not sure what you should be preparing for the most. At some level, you just have to rely on your blinding speed to win you the tough matches. I’m not sure if you should concern youself with Mewtwo or not. You have to rely on some amount of luck to deal with it, so maybe you should just hope for the donk.

    It’s similar with Spiritomb and Gastly. They can both really hurt you, but the core deck can still KO either of them. It just takes multiple attacks to do it. I don’t think that there is a good enough reason to tech against these, but if you really wanted to, then you could run more supporters (probably Pokemon Collector) and more Crobat G. That way you’d still have a fair chance of searching out multiple Crobats for either KO (Spiritomb/Gastly). Again, though, I think it hurts the deck’s other matchups.

    Finally, let’s talk Dialga G. The strategy goes like this. “Lose” the coin toss. They go first. Then you win. If you make it past your first turn, I think the strategy failed. Dunsparce gives you a slightly better chance of pulling it off, but really it’s not a fair fight.

    One thing that I think you can try to do about these things is run your own Spiritomb. I kinda like this option, but I have only tested it briefly. My theory is that if you don’t let your opponent get set up then it’s kinda like getting a couple extra chances at that “win on the first turn” strategy. I would probably only run 1 Spiritomb. Against some decks, you’d want to start with it active, but against others it would be more of a hindrance (because you still have to deal with getting it out of your own way). It’s very situational, but I think it can improve your chances against some. It can also completely hose you.

    I know I wrote a lot and barely even answered your questions. I don’t have a whole lot of real world experience with the latest build of this deck. Previous versions seemed to either donk or get donked. I feel like this version has high donk potential while also lowering the “get donked” risk.

    Congrats on winning your City tourney! I’d be very interested to hear about your different builds and what you did to tweak it to help against trainer lock.

    Every time I start thinking about (or trying to test) tweaks for certain matchups, I get back to the basics. I just think that with a deck like this you live by the sword and die by the sword. The deck is a dangerous weapon that can beat anything out there, but it can also lose very unceremoniously.

  • Cheffords

    Ed,

    Thanks for the discussion. To be honest, I am ignoring the potential for Mewtwo as well since I never see it. So far, my toughest matches are against an SP deck that has Luxray, Garchomp, and Blaziken in it. This is rough because they can OHKO my Crobats with Luxray and they can OHKO anything I have with Blaziken while I struggle to OHKO anything on their side only to have them get healed by Garchomp.

    Anyway, the following is the list that I used to win the first Cities tournament this season.
    Pokemon
    4 Uxie LA
    4 Unown R LA
    3 Crobat G PL
    2 Shuppet PL
    1 Spiritomb LA
    1 Unown Q MD
    15 cards
     
    Trainers/Supporters 
    4 Buck’s Training
    4 PlusPower
    4 Super Scoop Up
    4 Poke Blower +
    4 Poke Drawer +
    4 Poke Turn
    4 Pokedex Handy 910is
    3 Pokemon Rescue
    3 Great Ball
    2 Energy Search
    2 Expert Belt
    2 Night Teleporter
    1 Warp Point
    1 Luxury Ball
    42 cards

    Energy
    3 Psychic Energy
    3 cards
     
    Like I said, I didn’t see any trainer lock this day and my toughest matchup was a Charizard AR based deck. which I lost to in swiss but beat during top cut.

    This build doesn’t focus on the T1 donk as much as your lists (and most lists you see) do. However donking does occur. In fact, the final game of the tournament was won on my first turn, donking the lone Uxie they had out.

    When I went 4/3 at my second cities with the exact same list, I sat down and evaluated my losses. They all came down to being trainer locked and not having an effective way out of it. So I adjusted the deck by removing the Energy Search and a couple other cards in favor of 4 Roseanne’s research. This made a huge difference because even with a trainer lock on me, I can search out the 1 energy and the 1 pokemon I need to still attack. Shuppet gets a 2 hit KO on Spiritomb and Gastly.

    Dialga is still an issue, and for me in my meta, Dusknoir is too. I have adjusted again since the release of HeartGold SoulSilver, adding in Dunsparce and a Cylcone Energy.

    Dunsparce helps me with my SP matchup because of type-matching on Garchomp. Now I have a way to OHKO in return so I can better manage the prize count. Furthermore, with the addition of Cyclone Energy, I can push Dusknoir or Dialga (or Mewtwo, Mr. Mime, and Spiritomb) to the bench to better attack something else.

    I have had 1 day at the league and several side matches since I tweaked with Dunsparce so I am not fully confident yet with it, but I feel it is definitely a great option for my deck and style.

    I am still committed to this deck at this time with States about 1 month away. I am hoping to see some new decks at league to I can get a better idea of how HGSS has changed the meta game. One thing for sure though, I used to be the fastest deck in play, and that no longer holds true. This is why I am not focussed on the T1 donk but rather for a strategic win with a build that gives me tactical options throughout the game.

  • Cheffords

    Ed,

    Thanks for the discussion. To be honest, I am ignoring the potential for Mewtwo as well since I never see it. So far, my toughest matches are against an SP deck that has Luxray, Garchomp, and Blaziken in it. This is rough because they can OHKO my Crobats with Luxray and they can OHKO anything I have with Blaziken while I struggle to OHKO anything on their side only to have them get healed by Garchomp.

    Anyway, the following is the list that I used to win the first Cities tournament this season.
    Pokemon
    4 Uxie LA
    4 Unown R LA
    3 Crobat G PL
    2 Shuppet PL
    1 Spiritomb LA
    1 Unown Q MD
    15 cards
     
    Trainers/Supporters 
    4 Buck’s Training
    4 PlusPower
    4 Super Scoop Up
    4 Poke Blower +
    4 Poke Drawer +
    4 Poke Turn
    4 Pokedex Handy 910is
    3 Pokemon Rescue
    3 Great Ball
    2 Energy Search
    2 Expert Belt
    2 Night Teleporter
    1 Warp Point
    1 Luxury Ball
    42 cards

    Energy
    3 Psychic Energy
    3 cards
     
    Like I said, I didn’t see any trainer lock this day and my toughest matchup was a Charizard AR based deck. which I lost to in swiss but beat during top cut.

    This build doesn’t focus on the T1 donk as much as your lists (and most lists you see) do. However donking does occur. In fact, the final game of the tournament was won on my first turn, donking the lone Uxie they had out.

    When I went 4/3 at my second cities with the exact same list, I sat down and evaluated my losses. They all came down to being trainer locked and not having an effective way out of it. So I adjusted the deck by removing the Energy Search and a couple other cards in favor of 4 Roseanne’s research. This made a huge difference because even with a trainer lock on me, I can search out the 1 energy and the 1 pokemon I need to still attack. Shuppet gets a 2 hit KO on Spiritomb and Gastly.

    Dialga is still an issue, and for me in my meta, Dusknoir is too. I have adjusted again since the release of HeartGold SoulSilver, adding in Dunsparce and a Cylcone Energy.

    Dunsparce helps me with my SP matchup because of type-matching on Garchomp. Now I have a way to OHKO in return so I can better manage the prize count. Furthermore, with the addition of Cyclone Energy, I can push Dusknoir or Dialga (or Mewtwo, Mr. Mime, and Spiritomb) to the bench to better attack something else.

    I have had 1 day at the league and several side matches since I tweaked with Dunsparce so I am not fully confident yet with it, but I feel it is definitely a great option for my deck and style.

    I am still committed to this deck at this time with States about 1 month away. I am hoping to see some new decks at league to I can get a better idea of how HGSS has changed the meta game. One thing for sure though, I used to be the fastest deck in play, and that no longer holds true. This is why I am not focussed on the T1 donk but rather for a strategic win with a build that gives me tactical options throughout the game.

  • Ed

    Thanks for all the feedback, Cheffords. There’s some good info in there. I’m curious about 2 things (both dealing with Spiritomb, oddly).

    I’ve not run (or even considered trying) Spiritomb LA before. How does that work for you? I like the idea, but I wonder how much it actually helps in practice. Does it get you KOs? At first glance, it seems pretty slick, but I’m not sure that I’d usually have damage spread around enough to take advantage of its power. I’d think that it may not be better than Crobat G, but maybe it’s just situational.

    Have you tested much with Spiritomb AR? I really like the card, but I’m just not convinced that it’s the best for the deck. If you focused on working Spiritomb AR into the deck, then maybe it would help your deck against trainer lock in other ways. It would lock the opponent’s trainers, but it would also force you to rely less on them (for when Spiritomb was your starter).

    So, I wonder if you could make a bit of a re-focused Shuppet deck using Spiritomb AR and Pokemon Collector. The drawback, of course, is that swapping out Roseanne’s for Collector means no more energy searching. The plus side is that Collector + Unown R (or maybe Uxie) can really help maneuver when there’s an opposing Spiritomb AR.

    Regice LA may also be an option here, which I’ve considered in the past, but never actually tested. Pokemon Collector could get you a Shuppet, Uxie, and Regice. Drop Shuppet and Regice. Then discard your cards to Regice to swap out Spiritomb. Even if they have another Spiritomb, you can still get cards out of your hand, so you can drop Uxie. Eventually, I’d think you get another Uxie or Energy.

    Unfortunately, Regice really sucks as a starter. Some of the others aren’t great (like Unown Q, Unown R, or even Uxie), but at least they can be retreated easily (mainly with Q).

    Anyway, I wonder if you could fit in
    2 Spiritomb AR
    1 Regice LA
    4 Pokemon Collector (or some combination with Roseanne’s)

    And if you do run Collector, I would probably run at least 3 Night Maintenance. The synergy with 3UnownR+NM+Collector is just too good, in my opinion.

  • Ed

    Thanks for all the feedback, Cheffords. There’s some good info in there. I’m curious about 2 things (both dealing with Spiritomb, oddly).

    I’ve not run (or even considered trying) Spiritomb LA before. How does that work for you? I like the idea, but I wonder how much it actually helps in practice. Does it get you KOs? At first glance, it seems pretty slick, but I’m not sure that I’d usually have damage spread around enough to take advantage of its power. I’d think that it may not be better than Crobat G, but maybe it’s just situational.

    Have you tested much with Spiritomb AR? I really like the card, but I’m just not convinced that it’s the best for the deck. If you focused on working Spiritomb AR into the deck, then maybe it would help your deck against trainer lock in other ways. It would lock the opponent’s trainers, but it would also force you to rely less on them (for when Spiritomb was your starter).

    So, I wonder if you could make a bit of a re-focused Shuppet deck using Spiritomb AR and Pokemon Collector. The drawback, of course, is that swapping out Roseanne’s for Collector means no more energy searching. The plus side is that Collector + Unown R (or maybe Uxie) can really help maneuver when there’s an opposing Spiritomb AR.

    Regice LA may also be an option here, which I’ve considered in the past, but never actually tested. Pokemon Collector could get you a Shuppet, Uxie, and Regice. Drop Shuppet and Regice. Then discard your cards to Regice to swap out Spiritomb. Even if they have another Spiritomb, you can still get cards out of your hand, so you can drop Uxie. Eventually, I’d think you get another Uxie or Energy.

    Unfortunately, Regice really sucks as a starter. Some of the others aren’t great (like Unown Q, Unown R, or even Uxie), but at least they can be retreated easily (mainly with Q).

    Anyway, I wonder if you could fit in
    2 Spiritomb AR
    1 Regice LA
    4 Pokemon Collector (or some combination with Roseanne’s)

    And if you do run Collector, I would probably run at least 3 Night Maintenance. The synergy with 3UnownR+NM+Collector is just too good, in my opinion.

  • Cheffords

    Ed,

    Let me start by telling you that Spiritomb LA is no longer in my deck. However I don have some info about the when it was in there. I play tested my initial build of Shuppet between Battle Roads and the first City tournament, this gave me many games with Spiritomb LA in the deck. Some games it wasn’t a factor at all because it just wasn’t needed. Other games it saved my neck and even got me the win. It is definitely situational. The primary reason I took it out was that even with an Unown Q attached it has a 1 energy retreat and this is painful in a deck that only runs 3 energies.

    I found that it was a decent counter to Dialga G, oddly enough. Dialga’s Deafen attack does 10 damage plus trainer lock. Spiritomb’s attack moved 1 damage counter to whichever pokemon on the defending side as you want. Unless Dialga G had Unown G attached, Spiritomb can just move the damage it just took from Dailga onto Dialga. This gets past the resistance and the special metal energies because it isn’t attack damage.

    There were at least 2 games where I was able to drop Spiritomb to the bench to add damage to multiple targets at once, super scoop it, and repeat. This can add up when the opponent has retreated hurt pokemon.

    But, like I said, in the end I removed it.

    I have not tested Spiritomb AR in my Shuppet deck but have built other decks that use it. This was mainly for me to test against, but I also would use it to help my understanding of how it is used. I know the classic build of Shuppet uses Mr. Mime and Spiritomb AR to hid behind when Shuppet attacks, but I haven’t been interested in that tactic (yet). The one thing that always gets me is a power sprayed Set Up. Played correctly, Spiritomb LA could prevent the power spray.

    I guess I am now curious enough to try it out. I’ll report what I find after next league.

    I too have been thinking of Regice LA for the field manipulation. This could be great mid to late game when they have their main attacker active with an expert belt and I have burned all of my blowers and warps. I can see it being good early game too if I am facing trainer lock (since my hand will be jammed up with extra cards I can’t play). I just worry about discarding cards that I actually need (my list seems pretty tight, I tend to use everything during a good game).

    You make some interesting suggestions that I might have to try out. I’ll let you know.

  • Cheffords

    Ed,

    Let me start by telling you that Spiritomb LA is no longer in my deck. However I don have some info about the when it was in there. I play tested my initial build of Shuppet between Battle Roads and the first City tournament, this gave me many games with Spiritomb LA in the deck. Some games it wasn’t a factor at all because it just wasn’t needed. Other games it saved my neck and even got me the win. It is definitely situational. The primary reason I took it out was that even with an Unown Q attached it has a 1 energy retreat and this is painful in a deck that only runs 3 energies.

    I found that it was a decent counter to Dialga G, oddly enough. Dialga’s Deafen attack does 10 damage plus trainer lock. Spiritomb’s attack moved 1 damage counter to whichever pokemon on the defending side as you want. Unless Dialga G had Unown G attached, Spiritomb can just move the damage it just took from Dailga onto Dialga. This gets past the resistance and the special metal energies because it isn’t attack damage.

    There were at least 2 games where I was able to drop Spiritomb to the bench to add damage to multiple targets at once, super scoop it, and repeat. This can add up when the opponent has retreated hurt pokemon.

    But, like I said, in the end I removed it.

    I have not tested Spiritomb AR in my Shuppet deck but have built other decks that use it. This was mainly for me to test against, but I also would use it to help my understanding of how it is used. I know the classic build of Shuppet uses Mr. Mime and Spiritomb AR to hid behind when Shuppet attacks, but I haven’t been interested in that tactic (yet). The one thing that always gets me is a power sprayed Set Up. Played correctly, Spiritomb LA could prevent the power spray.

    I guess I am now curious enough to try it out. I’ll report what I find after next league.

    I too have been thinking of Regice LA for the field manipulation. This could be great mid to late game when they have their main attacker active with an expert belt and I have burned all of my blowers and warps. I can see it being good early game too if I am facing trainer lock (since my hand will be jammed up with extra cards I can’t play). I just worry about discarding cards that I actually need (my list seems pretty tight, I tend to use everything during a good game).

    You make some interesting suggestions that I might have to try out. I’ll let you know.

  • Ed

    Yeah, I don’t know that the switch to Spiritomb/Regice/Supporters would ultimately prove to be better than the main article’s build. I think it can help you deal with trainer locks a bit more, but it may hurt your other matchups too much.

    The Cyclone with Dunsparce/Uxie works rather well, so I don’t think Regice is needed for that ability alone. I would only play it to give you an alternate way to empty your hand so that you can Set Up for more cards. If you’re trainer locked, it is hard to do much at all, so Regice could help with that.

    I was playing my LuxApe deck last night against Omar, and he tried out the Shuppet build from the main article above. He got Cyclone in his starting hand, and it ultimately won him the game. Without it, I’m sure he’d have lost. Of course, you won’t always get it in the opening hand, and it’s a bit hard to search for. Ultimately, though, it’s a really nice ability for a deck like this. I’m thinking that Reversals may also be warranted here.

  • Ed

    Yeah, I don’t know that the switch to Spiritomb/Regice/Supporters would ultimately prove to be better than the main article’s build. I think it can help you deal with trainer locks a bit more, but it may hurt your other matchups too much.

    The Cyclone with Dunsparce/Uxie works rather well, so I don’t think Regice is needed for that ability alone. I would only play it to give you an alternate way to empty your hand so that you can Set Up for more cards. If you’re trainer locked, it is hard to do much at all, so Regice could help with that.

    I was playing my LuxApe deck last night against Omar, and he tried out the Shuppet build from the main article above. He got Cyclone in his starting hand, and it ultimately won him the game. Without it, I’m sure he’d have lost. Of course, you won’t always get it in the opening hand, and it’s a bit hard to search for. Ultimately, though, it’s a really nice ability for a deck like this. I’m thinking that Reversals may also be warranted here.

  • i am pretty sure you are jealous of t1 cyclone on unown G…saving me from the donk…haha.
    yeah thats it. I dont really have input on this deck, because i see it more of a deck for fun then anything else. I know trainer locks really put you in a bind…but what about plox? or is someone techs lookers or team galactics wager?
    idk. Its fun to play though

  • i am pretty sure you are jealous of t1 cyclone on unown G…saving me from the donk…haha.
    yeah thats it. I dont really have input on this deck, because i see it more of a deck for fun then anything else. I know trainer locks really put you in a bind…but what about plox? or is someone techs lookers or team galactics wager?
    idk. Its fun to play though

  • Cheffords

    I am fairly successful facing trainer lock lately.

    I have faced Lookers and Wager before and I have to say with so many Uxie in the deck these cards are a minor set back.

    I haven’t seen any power locking, aside from power spray, so I couldn’t comment on its effect on the deck. Although, as long as Shuppet has energy, plus powers, and expert belt, locking my powers isn’t that big of a problem.

    I can see power lock in the early game being an issue if it prevents Uxie setup or Crobat flash bite, but I don’t see it as big of a problem as something like Mr. Mime’s Airy Wall or Duscnoir’s Night Spin.

    I am still testing my changes and will report back when I have something new to say.

  • Cheffords

    I am fairly successful facing trainer lock lately.

    I have faced Lookers and Wager before and I have to say with so many Uxie in the deck these cards are a minor set back.

    I haven’t seen any power locking, aside from power spray, so I couldn’t comment on its effect on the deck. Although, as long as Shuppet has energy, plus powers, and expert belt, locking my powers isn’t that big of a problem.

    I can see power lock in the early game being an issue if it prevents Uxie setup or Crobat flash bite, but I don’t see it as big of a problem as something like Mr. Mime’s Airy Wall or Duscnoir’s Night Spin.

    I am still testing my changes and will report back when I have something new to say.

  • Ed

    I saw this today.

    http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=120963

    It the same list as in the main article here, but it has 2 Great Ball instead of 2 Night Maintenance. Let me tell you, dragon0466, NM is very useful in this deck! Without it, your late game Quick Balls, Roseanne’s Research, etc. are useless. With NM, they’re draw power.

    Cheffords, do you have anything new to say, yet? I’m low on interesting ideas/conversation, myself.

  • Ed

    I saw this today.

    http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=120963

    It the same list as in the main article here, but it has 2 Great Ball instead of 2 Night Maintenance. Let me tell you, dragon0466, NM is very useful in this deck! Without it, your late game Quick Balls, Roseanne’s Research, etc. are useless. With NM, they’re draw power.

    Cheffords, do you have anything new to say, yet? I’m low on interesting ideas/conversation, myself.

  • Cheffords

    So, I have tried Regice a little bit. It turns out he is dubiously helpful. What I mean by that is because his power requires you to discard two cards it is best late game when you have extra stuff in your hand to burn. However, late game is also the time when your opponent is most likely to have their evolved pokemon active which defeats Regice’s power. I am still looking for a useful tech.

    I also have to say that the addition of Cyclone Energy is a great thing. It’s nice to be able to cyclone away the defending pokemon. You can use it with Dunsparce and it comes back into your hand or you can use it with Uxie because psychic restore requires colorless.

    Personally I don’t have Night Maintenance in the deck, but I can see your argument Ed. I will test this out this week.

  • Cheffords

    So, I have tried Regice a little bit. It turns out he is dubiously helpful. What I mean by that is because his power requires you to discard two cards it is best late game when you have extra stuff in your hand to burn. However, late game is also the time when your opponent is most likely to have their evolved pokemon active which defeats Regice’s power. I am still looking for a useful tech.

    I also have to say that the addition of Cyclone Energy is a great thing. It’s nice to be able to cyclone away the defending pokemon. You can use it with Dunsparce and it comes back into your hand or you can use it with Uxie because psychic restore requires colorless.

    Personally I don’t have Night Maintenance in the deck, but I can see your argument Ed. I will test this out this week.

  • Ed

    That’s good to know about Regice. If I had to guess, I’d think it wouldn’t be great unless you were real worried about opposing Spiritomb. If you were, then Regice would give you an alternate way to empty your hand for Uxie’s Set Up (thus giving you a chance to find the Cyclone).

    I am very in favor of the Night Maintenance. I could do without the Pokemon Rescue, but not the NM. It’s just so good with Unown R. The combo turns Roseanne into Bill and Quick Ball into PokeDrawer.

    It’s not great in your opening hand, but you can usually get at least 1 R into the discard.

    One thing that I think needs to be tested is the Pokemon Reversal. Here’s how I’d mod the list at the top of this page to test it.

    -1 Poke Rescue
    -1 Unown G
    -2 Dusk Ball
    +4 Pokemon Reversal

    The main problem with the Reversal (for this deck) isn’t so much the flippiness. That’s mitigated by Uxie. If you get tails, you still draw extra cards. The problem is actually getting multiple early on. Then, if you get heads on the first, the next one is somewhat dead.

    I think, though, that it might be something real nice for the deck.

  • Ed

    That’s good to know about Regice. If I had to guess, I’d think it wouldn’t be great unless you were real worried about opposing Spiritomb. If you were, then Regice would give you an alternate way to empty your hand for Uxie’s Set Up (thus giving you a chance to find the Cyclone).

    I am very in favor of the Night Maintenance. I could do without the Pokemon Rescue, but not the NM. It’s just so good with Unown R. The combo turns Roseanne into Bill and Quick Ball into PokeDrawer.

    It’s not great in your opening hand, but you can usually get at least 1 R into the discard.

    One thing that I think needs to be tested is the Pokemon Reversal. Here’s how I’d mod the list at the top of this page to test it.

    -1 Poke Rescue
    -1 Unown G
    -2 Dusk Ball
    +4 Pokemon Reversal

    The main problem with the Reversal (for this deck) isn’t so much the flippiness. That’s mitigated by Uxie. If you get tails, you still draw extra cards. The problem is actually getting multiple early on. Then, if you get heads on the first, the next one is somewhat dead.

    I think, though, that it might be something real nice for the deck.

  • Cheffords

    Testing at league was pretty tough this week. I teched in 1 Night Maintenance, and took out 2 Great Ball for 2 Team Galactic HQ. I faced a Jumpluff HS deck and lost 3 games in a row. I must have broke my deck because in all 3 games I didn’t play a single Uxie, and only 1 Roseanne’s.

    I also played against a Donphan PRIME deck which went only a little bit better but I still lost.

    Anyway, I am rethinking some stuff and will be tweaking the list again. I like the looks of Pokemon Reversal and Pokemon Communication. I’ll have to test these out as well.

  • Cheffords

    Testing at league was pretty tough this week. I teched in 1 Night Maintenance, and took out 2 Great Ball for 2 Team Galactic HQ. I faced a Jumpluff HS deck and lost 3 games in a row. I must have broke my deck because in all 3 games I didn’t play a single Uxie, and only 1 Roseanne’s.

    I also played against a Donphan PRIME deck which went only a little bit better but I still lost.

    Anyway, I am rethinking some stuff and will be tweaking the list again. I like the looks of Pokemon Reversal and Pokemon Communication. I’ll have to test these out as well.

  • Ed

    Yeah, it sounds like you won’t determine much from that testing. At least you still get league stamps.
    :)

    I haven’t been playing much Shuppet recently, but I have been playing the Scizor/Cherrim deck.
    http://www.teamomar.info/2010/02/12/juniors-deck-workshop-scizor-jumpluff/
    My daughter is learning it, and I’ve been testing it to help tweak it for her. It has a similar, yet not quite as prolific, draw engine (without Uxie). It relies fairly heavily on the Unown R/Collection/Maintenance connection, and it works very well.

    In that deck, I tested Reversal and Communication. Both have gotten axed recently. Some of this is due to her being 6 and having a different playstyle, but some of it is generally applicable.

    I think that Reversal is good for a deck like Uxie where you want heads but just getting the card out of the hand is fine. It can help you win some matchups. In the Scizor deck (and many decks, I think), I’m going to side with Warp Point. Its dual uses (switching out their active OR your active) is worth the drawback of not getting to decide what they bring up.

    I really thought that Pokemon Communication was a nice card when I first picked it up. Now, I’m thinking less of it. With Collector, it’s pretty good, because you can often spend one of the 3 Collector grabs and upgrade to a non-basic with Communication. The problem is that most decks won’t run Collector, and they won’t have extra Pokemon hanging around in their hand. Bebe’s might be better, and I hate siding with a supporter over a trainer.

    In Shuppet, though, I’m still a bit up in the air. I think that I wouldn’t run it after considering. There isn’t that many times that you need a certain pokemon and have another sitting in your hand ready to trade.

    I’m also not a big fan of the Great Ball here. Most of the time, when you need a specific basic, it’s Uxie. Great Ball doesn’t play well with Uxie. Sure, it can get you Dunsparce or Shuppet, but if you’re without one of those, you can always attack with Uxie. It’s rarely bad to put Uxie back in the deck to retrieve at a later time (like next turn with a Dusk Ball).

    So, let’s scratch my – and + that I posted in my last comment. I’ll go with this, instead.

    -1 Pokemon Communication
    -1 Pokemon Rescue
    -1 Banette
    -1 Player’s Choice (maybe Unown G/Pokedex/etc.)
    +4 Pokemon Reversal

    Oh, and I don’t know if I believe in Shuppet needing any stadiums. What has your experience? I’ve had Miasma Valley in and out, but it really never makes a difference. The only good it ever seems to do is removing the opponent’s stadium. I’d think that Galactic HQ would be similar, but I’ve not tested it. The offensive firepower here is pretty wicked without any stadium action.

  • Ed

    Yeah, it sounds like you won’t determine much from that testing. At least you still get league stamps.
    :)

    I haven’t been playing much Shuppet recently, but I have been playing the Scizor/Cherrim deck.
    http://www.teamomar.info/2010/02/12/juniors-deck-workshop-scizor-jumpluff/
    My daughter is learning it, and I’ve been testing it to help tweak it for her. It has a similar, yet not quite as prolific, draw engine (without Uxie). It relies fairly heavily on the Unown R/Collection/Maintenance connection, and it works very well.

    In that deck, I tested Reversal and Communication. Both have gotten axed recently. Some of this is due to her being 6 and having a different playstyle, but some of it is generally applicable.

    I think that Reversal is good for a deck like Uxie where you want heads but just getting the card out of the hand is fine. It can help you win some matchups. In the Scizor deck (and many decks, I think), I’m going to side with Warp Point. Its dual uses (switching out their active OR your active) is worth the drawback of not getting to decide what they bring up.

    I really thought that Pokemon Communication was a nice card when I first picked it up. Now, I’m thinking less of it. With Collector, it’s pretty good, because you can often spend one of the 3 Collector grabs and upgrade to a non-basic with Communication. The problem is that most decks won’t run Collector, and they won’t have extra Pokemon hanging around in their hand. Bebe’s might be better, and I hate siding with a supporter over a trainer.

    In Shuppet, though, I’m still a bit up in the air. I think that I wouldn’t run it after considering. There isn’t that many times that you need a certain pokemon and have another sitting in your hand ready to trade.

    I’m also not a big fan of the Great Ball here. Most of the time, when you need a specific basic, it’s Uxie. Great Ball doesn’t play well with Uxie. Sure, it can get you Dunsparce or Shuppet, but if you’re without one of those, you can always attack with Uxie. It’s rarely bad to put Uxie back in the deck to retrieve at a later time (like next turn with a Dusk Ball).

    So, let’s scratch my – and + that I posted in my last comment. I’ll go with this, instead.

    -1 Pokemon Communication
    -1 Pokemon Rescue
    -1 Banette
    -1 Player’s Choice (maybe Unown G/Pokedex/etc.)
    +4 Pokemon Reversal

    Oh, and I don’t know if I believe in Shuppet needing any stadiums. What has your experience? I’ve had Miasma Valley in and out, but it really never makes a difference. The only good it ever seems to do is removing the opponent’s stadium. I’d think that Galactic HQ would be similar, but I’ve not tested it. The offensive firepower here is pretty wicked without any stadium action.

  • Cheffords

    So, I use Great Ball to fetch Unown R, Unown Q, Mr. Mime, Shuppet, or Dunsparce. So I like it a lot, more than Quick Ball or Dusk Ball.

    I rarely attack with Uxie unless I have to. Sending my energy to the bottom of the deck is a risk unless I have a Roseanne’s in my hand to get it back next turn. Of course if I have the Roseanne’s then I can also grab Uxie if I need to. Nullifying the need for Dusk Ball.

    I agree that a stadium isn’t really needed, at least not for offense. I was playing with a stadium because I have run into 2 different Dusckoir Lv.X decks that focus on spread. Without a chance to discard the Lv.X when it becomes the stadium, my entire lineup gets KO’d in 4 turns. Of course the way around this is to not knock out the Dusknoir Lv.X and instead go after the other pokemon in play. With Poke Blower+, Warp Point, Cyclone Energy, and now Pokemon Reversal, I have plenty of options.

    Also, if I have to go after the Dusknoir, if I deliver the KO via Crobat’s Flash Bite, the Lv.X doesn’t get to be a stadium.

    I am struggling with my deck list to find room for reversals. With the flip being as chancy as it is, you have to run 4 to make it worth while.

  • Cheffords

    So, I use Great Ball to fetch Unown R, Unown Q, Mr. Mime, Shuppet, or Dunsparce. So I like it a lot, more than Quick Ball or Dusk Ball.

    I rarely attack with Uxie unless I have to. Sending my energy to the bottom of the deck is a risk unless I have a Roseanne’s in my hand to get it back next turn. Of course if I have the Roseanne’s then I can also grab Uxie if I need to. Nullifying the need for Dusk Ball.

    I agree that a stadium isn’t really needed, at least not for offense. I was playing with a stadium because I have run into 2 different Dusckoir Lv.X decks that focus on spread. Without a chance to discard the Lv.X when it becomes the stadium, my entire lineup gets KO’d in 4 turns. Of course the way around this is to not knock out the Dusknoir Lv.X and instead go after the other pokemon in play. With Poke Blower+, Warp Point, Cyclone Energy, and now Pokemon Reversal, I have plenty of options.

    Also, if I have to go after the Dusknoir, if I deliver the KO via Crobat’s Flash Bite, the Lv.X doesn’t get to be a stadium.

    I am struggling with my deck list to find room for reversals. With the flip being as chancy as it is, you have to run 4 to make it worth while.

  • Ed

    I don’t mind the Great Ball. I played it here before. I do like Quick Ball way better in this deck, though. That’s just me. I know that some people really don’t like the randomness of certain cards, and Quick definitely has a fair bit of random.

    Dusk Ball, psh. I dunno. It usually gets something useful, but I could live without it. Great Ball could be better, but I find (with all the draw power) that I either draw into Roseanne’s or the Shuppet/Dunsparce and an energy.

    I don’t know how much I will mess with this deck, anymore. Lately, I keep stealing cards from it to work on other decks. I always replace the card with a placeholder/proxy, but now Shuppet is over half placeholders. It’s a bit sad, really.

  • Ed

    I don’t mind the Great Ball. I played it here before. I do like Quick Ball way better in this deck, though. That’s just me. I know that some people really don’t like the randomness of certain cards, and Quick definitely has a fair bit of random.

    Dusk Ball, psh. I dunno. It usually gets something useful, but I could live without it. Great Ball could be better, but I find (with all the draw power) that I either draw into Roseanne’s or the Shuppet/Dunsparce and an energy.

    I don’t know how much I will mess with this deck, anymore. Lately, I keep stealing cards from it to work on other decks. I always replace the card with a placeholder/proxy, but now Shuppet is over half placeholders. It’s a bit sad, really.

  • ryangraham

    Hey Jona. Ryan here.. I'm really, really interested in seeing a solid Shuppet build. Honestly, I'm tossing around the idea of setting one up and I need some help. I've seen your victory clear across the board, and am looking to hop on the boat. :) Any interest in posting your newest list? Thanks!

  • Cheffords

    Hi Ryan. So, in reviewing this thread, I see that I posted the list that I won Rochester Hills City championship with (see this comment: http://www.teamomar.com/2010/02/16/hgss-shuppet…). This is a good starting point.

    Since then I have had to adjust for trainer lock (Spiritomb, Gastly, Dialga G), Mr. Mime, Jumpluff, Gyarados, and CurseGar. These are the cards I have added to my list: Roseanne's Research, Pokemon Reversal, Dunsparce HS, Cyclone Energy, and Night Maintenance.

    I know this isn't the same thing as posting my exact list, but I think that you will be better off by trying different cards out on your own to figure out what works and what doesn't. I honestly believe that one of the biggest factors in winning games for me is how well I know my deck. I know what it can do, what it can't do, and what to expect from it when I sit down to a game. This knowledge comes from playing with it for so many months that it is like an old friend.

    I think if you spend a some time playing the deck and making some tweaks as you go you will come up with a list that works for you and your style of play. This is important because even now, Ed and I disagree on some points about how this deck plays. These disagreements boil down to playing style and preference.

    Make sure you test against CurseGar, Jumpluff, Gyarados, and of course LuxChomp.

  • Ed

    I can agree with that (even the part about me disagreeing). I like to play the deck fast and a bit reckless. In fact, I still really like the grandfather of this deck.

    See
    http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105043
    and
    http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=155313

    That deck is so quick, dangerous, and fragile. Shuppet/Dunsparce adds consistency at the expense of the double (and maybe even triple nowadays) donk.

    But, that's not how Jona would play it. He prefers the even more consistent and methodical build running more supporters. I'm thinking now that Jona's way is going to be better for the current metagame, but it also requires that you know the deck and the matchup to really optimize your plays. The further you go toward reckless abandon (like that Uxie version), the less important it is to know the matchup, because you just do your own thing until you either win or lose.

  • AzNightmare

    Regarding the Banette tactic.
    Remember Mewtwo Lv.X has a x2 weakness to Psychic.
    “60 damage” is the magic number.
    Bannette + Memory Berry will allow it to use Shuppet's “Fade Out” attack.
    Attach some PlusPower/Expert Belt to do at least 60 damage for the Fade Out
    and Mewtwo's KO'ed.

  • AzNightmare

    Sorry, I just realized I said what you said already. lol